Nothing too surprising here but certainly highlights a lesson needing to be learnt by Little 500 coaches. This video makes it clear that, even at the highest level, a Women's cycling team needs to be treated very differently from a Men's team.
8 years ago
15 comments:
To categorize one's coaching needs as an athlete by one's gender would, in my opinion, be just as detrimental to their performance.
I think the clearer lesson is that all riders, regardless of similarities or differences in sex, gender, or ability, must be coached to their individual needs. Coaches must understand that every athlete has a unique makeup & skill set and that a cookie cutter training method will just not cut it.
-James Coudright
I would take the time to explain why your assumptions here are misleading, however you would probably still believe your own horse shit comment. Much like you probably believe that estimating someones IQ by how many front teeth they are missing is inaccurate.
"Everyone thinks their opinion matters. Don’t argue with a nobody. A farmer doesn’t bother telling a pig his breath smells like shit"
I'd be curious to hear how my assumptions are misleading. Maybe you could tell me in person?
-James
I don't think James' post warranted such a hate inspired reply.
So GP as the Chi-O coach for the past several years, what lesson did that video teach you?
Tom
I'm not sure much coaching has gone on with Chi-Omega but as you asked I think the video highlights that Women (in general and this is all generalizations) require a more measured approach in the coach-rider relationship. Guys can deal with being called out but I think girls need more encouragement and positive reinforcement. The video shows the best Women cyclists in the world and yet their DS needs to reassure them that they'll be OK going into the race in difficult conditions. I don't think that same interaction would have happened with the Cervelo Mens team, where the attitude is more HTFU and get on with it.
Compared to Sarah Duster, I think a male rider would react very differently to having a bad ride and therefore the subsequent coach-rider interaction would reflect this gender difference. Coming closer to home, in Little 5 the way a coach would deal with a rider who has a bad 'set' during the race is different in Mens and Women's race especially if the coach wanted that rider to maximize their ability next time they got on the bike.
Of course I think what James wrote is correct in that the individual attributes of each athlete are the most important consideration but I feel it is possible to make some gender specific generalities.
I think the video was probably cut to show more drama than there probably was. Egon van Kessel, comments multiple times that he doesn't understand why they feel the way they do. As you commented, this guy seems to have a formidable team despite an obvious lack of how to deal with women athletes. I will, however, qualify that comment by saying that the video may not accurately portray the team-coach relationship, and if it doesn’t, then both team and coach have a bone to pick with the filmmaker and their sponsor for releasing such a video. Van Kessel comes across as kind of clueless.
If I was coaching that team, I would be asking myself one thing when everything is said and done. Is it better to beat HTC by over a minute and loose two members off the back or is it better to beat HTC by 10, 20 or 30 seconds with the entire squad. It is a fairly complex logistics question if you think about it but it does boil down to performance vs. confidence; performance being quantitative and confidence being qualitative. Qualitative is extremely relevant with women athletes. In general, I would go for the maximum time gap if it were a men's event and sacrifice the time margin to have the team finish together for the women.
In Little 500, most women’s team struggle with much more basic situations. Chastising any rider after a bad set on race day is counterproductive and plain stupid coaching. If you have a team with the correct mindset, they will be much harder on themselves then a coach could be. With men, chastising one rider during the race primarily affects one person, with women, you demoralize the rest of the team.
Additionally, the Cervelo team is comprised of paid professional athletes. The average Little 500 team is a group with little or no institutional memory or experience which makes the effort to be a viable team much more difficult. In many cases over the years, teams with significant potential have been hindered by their coaching choices, which is unfortunate indeed. Not only for them but for the Little 500 as well.
Tom
I think the video was probably cut to show more drama than there probably was. Egon van Kessel, comments multiple times that he doesn't understand why they feel the way they do. As you commented, this guy seems to have a formidable team despite an obvious lack of how to deal with women athletes. I will, however, qualify that comment by saying that the video may not accurately portray the team-coach relationship, and if it doesn’t, then both team and coach have a bone to pick with the filmmaker and their sponsor for releasing such a video. Van Kessel comes across as kind of clueless.
If I was coaching that team, I would be asking myself one thing when everything is said and done. Is it better to beat HTC by over a minute and loose two members off the back or is it better to beat HTC by 10, 20 or 30 seconds with the entire squad. It is a fairly complex logistics question if you think about it but it does boil down to performance vs. confidence; performance being quantitative and confidence being qualitative. Qualitative is extremely relevant with women athletes. In general, I would go for the maximum time gap if it were a men's event and sacrifice the time margin to have the team finish together for the women.
In Little 500, most women’s team struggle with much more basic situations. Chastising any rider after a bad set on race day is counterproductive and plain stupid coaching. If you have a team with the correct mindset, they will be much harder on themselves then a coach could be. With men, chastising one rider during the race primarily affects one person, with women, you demoralize the rest of the team.
Additionally, the Cervelo team is comprised of paid professional athletes. The average Little 500 team is a group with little or no institutional memory or experience which makes the effort to be a viable team much more difficult. In many cases over the years, teams with significant potential have been hindered by their coaching choices, which is unfortunate indeed. Not only for them but for the Little 500 as well.
Tom
Is there anything that Tom doesn't know?
He doesn't know who you are.
One could fill libraries...
Oh my what a can of worms. What Geraint said is dead on though. I disagree with Tom in that women struggle more with the most basic situations? What the hell does that even mean? If I wasn't comfortable with the most basic situations, they wouldn't be out there whether that's physical or mental. No one cares if you mess up, it happens, people care and take notice when you beat yourself up emotionally over your mistake. That goes for men and women.
The concept is the same. The application of the concept is different. Check your ego at the door with coaching women because you'll get called out a lot! With men, being macho is more expected and funny.
What's the point of chastising one guy for a bad set while not affecting the others? it still affects 25% of your team. I'm sure he's hard on himself too if he wanted to win.
I believe that you misunderstood what I was saying, let me clarify it for you. My point was that a women’s Little 500 team struggles with different (and more basic) problems when compared to the Cervelo women’s team. The professional team has a well defined structure where the riders are primarily responsible for riding. They don’t have to maintain their bikes, attend classes, make grades, find a coach, find a student coach, etc. Perhaps they have members who need to have a part time job to pay for college, and on and on. They may not discover until it’s too late if the coaching advice they were getting created more problems than it solved.
In my experience with both men and women’s teams; everyone cares if you mess up. The reaction, that can run the gamut from, “that’s ok, we’ll recover”, to “you just cost us the race” can set a constructive or destructive tone. Women are more apt to internalize it if they mess up, guys a more inclined to blame someone or something else.
The factor of women vs. men in sports in general may not be that relevant. However, in Little 500 along with the difference in gender comes the difference in the time frame: 100 laps vs. 200 laps. I can’t even imagine how crazy the men’s race would be if it was just 100 laps.
I hope that makes more sense. If you have coached either or both races, I would curious to know what your thoughts would be based on the team(s) you coached as these are just my experiences.
Tom
Yes, I misunderstood. I thought you were comparing basic men's Little 5 situations to basic women's Little 5 situations. I agree about the blame thing too. Guys can find a way to blame anything on anyone.
The women are more mature in general. I just think you coach them the same, but the way you speak to them is different.
I heard Hank from Cutters crashed hard in Florida. He'll be out at least 6-8 weeks according to X rays on his shoulder. Patches quit. Clayton is gone. Eric is going to have to ride 150 laps and might finally be weak enough to lose a sprint.
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